Revolutionizing Accessibility: Why Ayes founders are leaving Europe to go into the US Market

It's super fun. They're, they're all great people. It's super fun to have a drink with, but sometimes they can get quite stubborn and then they're just like walking around in circles, bumping into tables and chairs. That's Willem van de Mierop, co founder of the Oco app that helps blind people effortlessly navigate intersections by simply pointing their phone's camera towards an intersection crossing.

The app will instantly detect the pedestrian signal and let them know. When it is safe to cross the street in this conversation, Willem and I discuss the inspiration behind the app, how they got their first users and the motivation for moving to New York city and trying to bring OCO to the U S market.

I'd love to hear your thoughts on this episode. As you listen, you can find me on LinkedIn under Eric Melchor, tag me, say hello. Let me know that you're listening. Now let's chat with Willem. Well, I'm welcome to innovators can laugh super excited to chat with you today. I think you guys have a product, a service really that is so essential for a large percentage of the population.

And when I, when I discovered it, when I discovered you, I thought, wow, this is really neat. This needs to go to market. It needs to be in the market. Everybody needs to know about it because everybody knows at least one person. That could really benefit from your product and your tools. So before we dive into that, why don't you just share something with the audience, maybe even something that not many people know about you, Willem.

About me. Okay. I'm a very social and open type of guy, but I really. Thrive on being able to do my daily exercises. If I can't do my daily exercise, it's hard for me. My co founders always say like, have you exercised today or not? Because I can tell. So if you're like in a grumpy mood and you're just being like an asshole to everybody, they're like, Oh, he probably didn't do his exercises.

He still needs to go for his daily exercise. Yeah. Yeah. What does that routine look like Willem? I try to switch it up. I'm struggling with a runner's knee at the moment, which is really annoying. So I need to do like exercises for my knees to get more stability. If I have the possibility to start running again, it's just putting on the running shoes in between meetings and going for a quick run.

Yeah, I love that. So I used to live in Hill's kitchen near 11th and 52nd and I would run on the West side highway, usually four mornings out of the week. Before I went to work, I'd go back and shower and. Go to work. And for me, that was one of the best runs. Obviously there's other good places to run in the city.

Central park being one of them. You're in New York currently. So where do you, where are you doing your running out in the gym? Or do you do it outside? I'm living in Brooklyn, but I mostly work in Manhattan in the financial district. And there I just go out of the, we work and then just run alongside the waterline, which is really nice.

Sometimes I take the subway up until central park and go for a run there. Brooklyn is harder and there's lots of blocks and it's not like super nice across the water or at least not where I'm at. So it's mostly before and after work. Yeah. What part of Brooklyn are you in? Currently Bushwick, but moving to Williamsburg.

Okay. Yeah. Bushwick. I think Mike Tyson is from Bushwick. I mean, and back then that used to be a pretty rough neighborhood. I don't know if it's still pretty rough and tumble. Have you gotten into any fights? Since you've been living there, Willem? I haven't gotten in any fight, but it's definitely still definitely rough.

So that's why probably moving to, to another area, but startup budget, of course, so you need to find the cheaper areas around New York. Yeah. Yeah. But Williamsburg is really nice. We used to hang out there a lot and we would take the L train. And this is when I first moved there, cause I lived in Brooklyn.

And so that was one of like the first places that we hung out a lot because it was close to where we live. And now some of the rents in Williamsburg are just as expensive as Manhattan. It's crazy how much real estate has gone up over there. Yeah, definitely. But apparently Greenpoint, which is close by, it's still okay.

So the prices aren't that high there. Williamsburg, it's pretty expensive as well. Yeah. So what's the situation like, because you're from the Netherlands, you're living in New York, and I think there's two other co founders, brothers, if I, if I'm not mistaken, are you all, all three of you guys up there in New York?

Yeah. So, and we're actually from Belgium, which is a small country besides the Netherlands that also speak the same language, but a different dialect. But yeah, we're all three here in New York to really focus on bringing the product here to market. Whereas the technical co founder might be going back a bit more to the team in Belgium, but the focus for me is really on staying here in New York.

Okay. Have you guys already tried to penetrate Belgium and surrounding countries or what was like the, what's, what's the main focus? Like, Hey, we really want to focus on the States first, or I guess take a step back. When did you guys launch the product? What is the product for the audience? And like what inspired you guys to create this product too?

Yeah, sure. So basically what we do is we use artificial intelligence and the back camera of the phone to translate visual information from the surroundings to Audio and haptics for blind and visually impaired people. So very easy. We recognize the pedestrian signal, the don't walk, the walk. And then we bring that information back with vibration sounds and a visual overlay.

And the idea started because we have a mutual friend called Kenny, who is fully blind, and he told us about some of the difficulties that he had while navigating outdoors. So as three engineers, AI engineers, we figured, okay, if a Tesla can drive autonomously on the highway, why can't we do the same for blind or visually impaired people?

And that's how we set out. We, we started with a hacky wearable device with a camera, but we then quickly realized, okay, if we want to get it into everyone's hands, it needs to run on smartphones that they already own. And so that was a major technical challenge to be able to optimize these AI algorithms to run locally on the smartphone.

But the moment that we were able to do that, we quit our job. So that was. July of 2021, we then launched in Belgium first with lots and lots of testing, of course, because it's a very specific type of product to design. And then we expanded into, we're now in Spain, Japan, and the U S as well. Wow. This is so fascinating.

Okay. How did you get the first people to test? Like, how did you get volunteers or, you know, experiment with this? So of course, Kenny was tester number one, and then he has lots of friends. So you just go. From, Hey, do you know anyone, do you know anyone? And then you go to each of these tests, you get to know people, you talk with them, you get lots of interesting user feedback, and then you just go on walks, lots and lots of walks with lots and lots of people.

And then the moment that of course it became an application, then it was quite easy to test because people are so excited about having an accessible. each time that they just all wanted to sign up and start testing. So within a month, we had a hundred testers using the application. And then after about three months of testing, we, we launched the app, which was beginning of 2022.

And then three months ago, we launched the app here in the U S. Where in the last month alone in us, we helped cross 62, 000 streets in total, already over 200, 000 in us. So it's growing quite fast. Wow. That is remarkable. And, and really, you know, hats off to you guys for, for the, the exponential growth in just a short amount of time.

And this is so fascinating. I remember traveling in Spain one time and I was crossing an intersection. I was, you know, a tourist. But never before did I hear this sound it was like this tickering or this bird chirping sound And I realized that you know what that's for people who are blind Right and it it signals to them that it's okay to cross the street This was probably like 10 years ago, and I thought so it was such an innovative idea And I thought why doesn't houston have this why don't more cities have this?

And I remember going back to houston houston is like a major city fourth largest city And there was nothing like that at the intersections and blind people, they had to rely on either just, you know, hearing the other people cross the street. Knowing that okay, it must be okay to cross Or either asking somebody or waiting for somebody to tell them.

Hey, it's okay to cross or something right now So i've always wondered like how do they do it? You know, I mean, I know they're very they've got, you know Impeccable hearing skills, but now they've got something That's so powerful within that, within their, you know, the touch of the fingertips. So how does it work for them?

I mean, what was some of the feedback, the initial feedback that you got? What were some of the changes that you made based on the feedback? And if you could like, you know, take the audience down a journey, like imagine if you just couldn't see, like close your eyes, like how would this work for, you know, for the people, for such people.

So. You're exactly right. It's, it's not installed on every intersection. Not at all. For example, in New York, it's only at 3 percent of the intersections that make such a sound. I was actually in Houston a few weeks ago and there as well, definitely not at the biggest intersections. And so it's, it's, it can be hard.

to rely on your hearing to make an informed decision. So basically you can imagine if you're blind or visually impaired people, you come up to an intersection. And what you need to do is you need to listen to the parallel flow of traffic. So that means if we have the intersection center at our left, we're listening to the cars going in our left to, to start crossing the street.

So the moment that we hear that a car is at the center of the intersection, that means that for us, it would be as well safe to cross because they are. Riding in the same direction as us. But of course you can imagine in an intersection, lots of different things are happening. People are turning right.

People are turning, turning left. It's hard to distinguish really what the, what the flow of traffic can be at certain intersections right now. There's also an electrification, which is cars that are less loud. There's also, for example, these new types of traffic systems where a pedestrian might have the walk signal first before.

Um, cars have it. And then of course these pedestrians start walking in the blind or visioning person thinks, okay, pedestrians are walking so I might have my right of way, but cars aren't flowing. So why is that the case? So very confusing scenarios. And that's where our Oco app comes in. So it's just.

Using the back camera of the phone makes every pedestrian signal accessible. The way to use it is you open up the app, it immediately starts working. So there's no button or actions that you need to do. You just hold it up against your chest. And then the moment that you kind of start making a sweeping rotation, you can imagine the moment that you're lined up correctly, it starts making sound.

And that actually gives you an extra sense of orientation because you've figured out, okay, now I'm aiming correctly. It's right against my chest. So now, now I know. That's the direction I want to go. And, and that's something that our users really love because they, they now know the status of the traffic light, they're lined up correctly and they make every pedestrian signal accessible.

Yeah. That is so cool. That is so cool. Especially for intersections that are not like your standard intersection here in Bucharest. And I'm sure in other, other major cities, there's a lot of roundabouts. And so you have like, you know, six, seven, eight different streets that are all meeting at one intersection.

And that's where that definitely comes into play. After a quick break, Willem and I talk about what culture shocks he experienced since moving to New York and why they are trying to get penetration into the U. S. market. All right, let's take a quick break and tell you about Easy Sales. That's right. The sponsor of our podcast.

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By using their fast activation, you can start increasing online sales in no time. And so you should learn more about easy sales. How it can help improve your business at EASYSALES. COM. Welcome back to my conversation with Willem. Since I used to live in the Big Apple back from 2003 to 2009, I was curious to see what Willem thought about living in New York and also wanted to get a better understanding as to why they are trying to get more penetration in the States versus the rest of Europe.

So okay. Thank you. Now, what was the decision to go from, Hey, we need to leave Belgium and we need to go to New York. You know, why did you guys make that big jump? Because obviously there's probably, you know, a few million people that could benefit from this tool here in Europe and other countries like Poland, even here in Romania, maybe the UK.

Why did you guys decide to, you know, jump ship and move across the pond? There's several factors that moved into play for the U. S. move. One is U. S. has a lot of old infrastructure. That old infrastructure makes it very hard for cities to equip them with these physical devices. So on average, it costs 64, 000 to equip one intersection with these audible speakers.

So there's a major cost second cities are actually being sued because they're not accessible on us enough in the, in the U S so for example, New York city lost a billion dollar lawsuit to increase their accessibility of the city. Chicago has a similar lawsuit right now. So really it's just a major problem for cities across the U S.

And that's why we figured, okay, we have this solution. There's a big, big problem in the U S why not go there. And then furthermore, there's very big wide intersections, uh, in the U S compared to, for example, in Europe and there, the application really helps because you're lining up correctly, but also while you're crossing it up, the application actually stops you from veering off into traffic, which can be very dangerous.

And that's something that our U S users really, really love as well. I had no idea that cities were being sued by, I'm guessing just advocacy groups and organizations. I, I, I didn't even know, I had no idea. This is pretty fascinating. Okay. Now what is the business model look like Willem? Is it like a pay to use app or how are you guys getting funded?

No. So basically what we figured is that if a sighted person doesn't need to pay to see the traffic light. Why should blind or visually impaired people have to pay for it? So the way that we do it here in Belgium or in Europe is we work with healthcare organizations or for example, cities and governments to be able to keep providing the application for free.

And we're in similar talks with governments in the U S but also healthcares. So that the application remains free for the end user. There's a third party that's paying for their license. Very cool. Very cool. And I love the fact that once it's open, you don't have to do anything, right? You just hold it to your chest and it just automatically starts working.

Talk about a great user experience. I mean, it can't really get any easier than that, right? No, exactly. That's also some of the re that's, that's some of the feedback that we got by working so closely with blind and visually impaired people is designing and creating an experience that blind and visually impaired people can use if they're tech savvy or not tech savvy.

That's also one of the reasons why the application is called Oko. It's Croatian for eye. But it actually, we're not, we're not the Croatian, but the reason that we chose that name is because it's very easy for Siri to pick up on that sound. So you just say, Hey, Siri, open OCO, hold it up against your chest and you're good to go.

Love it. Love it. Oh man, I love it. Love it so much. And that is a better name than, than Ace because I guess the name of the company is Ace, right? Yeah, that's correct. Yeah. Yeah. It's definitely a better name because it's catching on and it's becoming kind of like a verb. Kind of like Googled or something I have users of like YouTube videos of like, Oh, you're being upcodes or whatever.

So stuff like that. So it's cool. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Now there's three founders. You're one of them. What are some of the unique strengths that you bring to the table versus the other two founders? Like what is your, what are you mainly focused on? on, on finance and daily operations. The other co founder is a tech founder.

And then the third co founder does more of the sales. The uniqueness of our team is that we were all AI engineers by background. So that's why we're able to create such a solid product. But our, our interests are very aligned on what we want for the company. And the startup is that I really am very interested in all of these finance things and doing all of these negotiations while Michiel loves to sell the product and everything, and Vincent just wants to go.

It just wants to code all day. So it was very easy decision for us to make these different focuses. Yeah. Now, when you say like AI engineer, all three of you were AI engineers, all three of you guys met in college. Is that where you met or before that? We all indeed met in college. We all worked in the field for a bit.

I was doing medical AI. So recognizing cancer on certain scans or for example, COVID. On lung scans, my other co founder worked in a AI startup for autonomous vehicles. The other co founder was an AI consultant. So we all worked in the field of it, but we indeed met in college. Okay. Very, very cool. And this technology that you guys, you know, created for it, for the app, is it, is it patent in any way?

I mean, is it trademarked or, or is it something that, you know, is available? I have no idea. I mean, out in the open marketplace or what? No. The value of. Of our product is, is three layers. So one of course is that user experience that we have created to use that product. That's something very unique. Second is the way that we're able to create AI algorithms that are powerful, but also optimized to run on a local device.

You can imagine chat GPT and, and all of these bikes, they cost a ton of money to be able to operate. But that's the beauty of our product. It's running locally on the device. That's for fast reaction time. That also means that for us, there's no like real costs to doing that cloud inference and then thirdly is of course very important.

So we have an enormous data set that we have created to be able to create these algorithms and it's constantly growing. It's kind of like the Tesla model. These days, AI is very, very powerful. If it has good data, then you need this good data by. Using and capturing data while users are using it. So similar to how a Tesla is constantly capturing data while it's being used.

Our OcoApp is doing the same thing. So you could tell like the government, the local government in Chicago, like, Hey, at these times, these are the intersections that have a majority of, you know, blind people or people that are using our app, you know, at these days, or like, what are some other interesting data points that are you pulling?

So exactly those things can be very interesting. I have, I have like a map of the entire U S full of blue dots of the echo app being used everywhere. But as well for us, it's very valuable because we're capturing images and these images can be used to. Fine tune the algorithm even more, maintain it and create new algorithms.

Yeah, this is so cool. So for everybody who's listening, and I'm sure everybody knows somebody who is visually impaired or is blind that could use this. And so tell them about it because this is such a great tool that I think they're going to find that it's very useful, obviously, but it's needed. The bottom point is, you know, it's just, it's just, it's just something that's needed.

It helps them with their day to day activities. It's safer. And even people like me who don't need it at the moment, maybe later on I'll need it because my eyesight's getting a little bit worse as I get older, but I find that it's, it's fantastic and I can't wait to tell, you know, as many people as I know about it.

Willem, what are you guys excited about in the next 12 months? I mean, it seems like you guys have a lot going on. You're talking to different local governments. You've got this, you know, massive growth within the past few months, you know, in the States. I mean, but what else in the next 12 months that you're really focused on?

So there's massive improvements coming to the application where the experience of getting more information about your surroundings. So that will be very excited. That's of course, based on lots of user interviews and seeing how we can further improve the app, but as well as like what, like, like what, like just give us one idea, something, you know, so something, something that every sighted person subconsciously does when he comes to an intersection is look around and to see, okay, where am I at this point?

And so that's something that's hard for blind and visually impaired people. They have a mental map of, for example, I've crossed the street. Maybe five blocks. And so now I'm know that I'm at fifth Street or 22nd Street. I don't know. And so what we are doing is we're bringing back more of that information about the intersection.

So you're at this intersection, you're about to cross this street and all of that information to. Kind of like confirm your idea of where you're at each time that you're you want to start crossing that intersection shit Well, I'm more than that independence that that's what the word I think of I mean, this is a game changer I mean, they're gonna have more freedom and independence to navigate more parts of the city You know even other even when they go traveling with friends They're not they don't have to rely on somebody else to tell them where they're at what they're gonna go see What they're going to do, imagine using that app.

Oh, you're here, here, you know, just two blocks away is the museum of fine arts, blah, blah, blah. If you're interested, I, again, I'm getting a little carried away here, but that's what I think of is just having them be exposed to more of the things that people who can see that are exposed to and a better understanding of that without having to rely on other human interaction.

You're exactly right. That's really the feedback. That we're getting as well. Like this is a game changer. It's insane. Sometimes people that unfortunately in the past made the wrong decision to start crossing when the don't walk signal was on, got hit by a car and now they were afraid to go out again to rely on your, on their hearing.

And now they go out with the Okuwa because that's just like a confidence booster, a stress reduction, all of the, all of the above. And that's really nice to hear. Yeah, that is so awesome. Now, is it just available on the iPhone or you're also making it for, for the Android? Currently it's, it's only on iOS.

A fun fact is that most blind and visually impaired people actually own an iPhone. iPhones are much more accessible towards blind and visually impaired people than, for example, Androids. You can imagine you have all of these Androids, you have a few iPhones, an iPhone. Apple does a great job as standardizing the voiceover functionality.

That's the functionality where the phone literally speaks back to you. And that's really nice because Apple was also the inventor of that and all the blind and visually impaired people actually use an iPhone. So it's easy for us. All right. All right. Okay. So before we get into the rapid fire questions, what has, what have you learned from this experience?

William, you guys are, you know, you're a pretty young startup founder. And, uh, what I think you you're doing is, is quite fascinating. I think if you were to look back on your life, 40, 50 years from now, this is going to be one of the things that you're going to say, I'm, I'm proud of. That's just, that's just me.

I don't know if you'll say that to yourself, but looking at you, if I were in your shoes, this would be one of my proudest accomplishments. What has changed you personally? And why do you feel, you know, it has changed since working on, on this app? That's a great question. What has changed? I guess as a startup founder, it's of course always a rollercoaster, right?

So ups and downs, very high lows, very lows and very high highs. And I guess the ability to really good manage all of these, these different ups and downs is something that you learn along the way. And that's very nice. That's where the exercise comes in. Is it a great way to, to detox? Absolutely. I think everybody needs some avenues, some outlet.

To help get rid of stress reduce anxiety and just basically me time because That's my me time when I go work out in the morning. The kids aren't up yet I can listen to a favorite podcast just you know Stretch relax breathe a little bit get my workout in and when I don't have that time I'm, not necessarily grumpy But I think if you know three or four days would it go by and I didn't work out i'd probably get a little bit You know grumpy and annoying Okay.

First question. Rapid fire again. Give me the first answer that comes to your, to your head. Are you ready? Okay. Most interesting thing that you've done in the past 26 days. I've actually helped a lot of drunk, blind and visually impaired people to get to the elevator. It's fun to see a drunk, blind or visually impaired person.

Was this at the conference in Houston? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. It was a hotel full of blind and visually impaired people. And sometimes. But they got drugs. Okay. Wait a minute. They're all at the bar. I'm guessing they're like at the restaurant and the hotel and they're just like, bring me another one. I mean, how does this work?

Yeah. So they're, it's super fun. They're, they're all. Great people. It's super fun to have a drink with, but sometimes they can get quite stubborn. And then, and then they're just like walking around in circles, bumping into tables and chairs. And then they, they just don't want any help to try to get to the elevator or get to the restroom.

The funny thing is I was having a drink with a blind friend in the beginning. He always wanted some help to get to the restroom. The drunk, the drunker he got, the more he wanted to do it himself. He was like fucking, I'll walk through the chairs and the tables. Isn't that funny? Because we all have this like confidence, this ego, after we start drinking a couple of beers, I tell people like, Hey, I don't speak Romanian.

But after two or three drinks, you know, yeah, my Romanian is pretty good. And blind people are the same way. That's funny. That's really, really funny. Okay. All right. Next question. What is a favorite TV show? You can watch it again and again. I love mother family. It always makes me laugh. It's a great, great show currently also.

Really liking billions a lot. Yeah. Billions is good. Yeah. I love billions. Yeah. And number one strategy to prioritize your time. I always map out my days in the calendar. So this is for emails. This is for meetings and all of, and I, it doesn't always work out. Of course, sometimes you have a meeting that goes in between those times, but it's always good to have a.

A good calendar and block off your like time schedules. Completely agree. I only do podcast interviews on Wednesdays and Thursdays between set times and Fridays, like for content planning, completely agree with you there. It's a game changer. Okay. What is an unusual food or drink that you, that you like that you consume?

I don't know if it's unusual, but I like ginger beers a lot. They're a great way throughout the week. I usually don't drink alcohol. So then if I'm going on a networking event or something else, I just take a ginger beer. It's great. All right. Yeah. No, I like ginger beer too. Biggest thing that surprised you since or when you moved to New York.

Anything that shocked you that stood out? Everything is three times more expensive than in Europe. Come on, you're, you're in Belgium. Belgium's not cheap, man. Belgium's not cheap, but New York is very, very expensive. And just the fact that everyone has an Akin of membership, I guess also surprised me, which is like the expensive gym here.

They cost a ton of money per month and everyone just has it. Okay. What do you, I mean, what are you guys paying in rent? If you don't mind me asking at WeWork. And how many people are working at the WeWork? WeWork is kind of okay. It's 200 per month, per person. They get a discount. I was able to get a discount.

Normally it's 300 per person. Yeah, that's not too bad. That's actually what it costs here in Bucharest. Actually a little bit more, and this is Bucharest. It's not New York city. So that's, that's pretty good. Good negotiation skills, man. Okay. Last, last question here. Your next startup will be what? I have a lot of people that work in the medical field and I have a few, few ideas there on how we can increase productivity of doctors.

I think there's, there's still quite some innovation that's possible there. And so lots of ideas there. Okay, fantastic. Willem, thank you so much for coming on Innovators Collab. This has been a pleasure. Like I said, I think what you guys have created is, is, is a game changer. I think it's very valuable. If people want to learn more about the product, where should they go?

You can just search for, uh, A Y E S. Or www. ayes. ai. Okay. Yeah, I'll put links to everything in the show notes for everybody that's listening. And thanks for joining us this week. If you enjoy this, we've got more Dutch entrepreneurs that will be, I'm interviewing this season and we'll drop a new episode next Thursday as well.

All right, Willem. Have a great day over there. This is Eric signing off. I had a wonderful time chatting with Willem. I love how he and his friends came up with this idea for such an app after hearing firsthand the difficulties their blind friend was experiencing and therefore If you know someone who is visually impaired, I ask that you let them know about this app.

They'd greatly appreciate it. If you wanna learn more about Willem in the OCO app, go to www.ays.ai. Links to all of this are on the show notes and on the ICL website. Thank you to Willam for being on the show. If you like this episode, subscribe to it on Apple, Spotify, or YouTube and tell others about it.

I appreciate it. Thanks.