From Uber and BCG to building a telehealth for pets startup with Michael Fisher

They told me that before going on project to Saudi Arabia, I need to grow some beard because otherwise, for some reason, I need to have like Yeah. So I used to, I used to have like, I used to be the clean shaved and this is the time where I started wearing a beard because apparently back in the days in their culture, in order to be perceived as a grownup, you need to have like a facial hair, be it a goatee or a mustache or anything like that.

So yeah, this is, this is when I started to wear a a good looking beard right now. I do. Thanks a lot. That's Michael Fisher, founder of startup Cooper Pet Care, which is an innovative service Her parents who own pets, pet parents, and it allows them to connect to certified veterinarians via video call instantly.

But before he launched Cooper Pet Care, Michael held roles at Procter and Gamble, BCG, Uber, and Lime. In this conversation, he shares with us things he learned from a marketing research perspective at these companies and a crazy experience he had when launching Lime in Austria. I'll give you a hint.

Hackers could took control of the, uh, of the sleet of, uh, of, uh, scooters, lime scooters. It's, it sounds like it sounds like a crazy story, right? But it really did happen. Anyway, this is a fun conversation. You don't want to miss a quick note before we dive in. I recently launched the innovators can laugh podcast network.

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Okay, if you wanna learn more, just go to innovators can laugh.com. All right, and now let's jump into the conversation with Michael. Hey Mike, it's a pleasure to have you here on Innovators Kle. How you doing today? I'm not too bad. Thanks a lot, Eric. Uh, pleasure to be here. Thanks for inviting y. Yeah, absolutely.

My first question I want to know about you, Michael, is what was your first pet as a kid? My first pet as a kid was a dog, and it was a huge one. It's called Caucasian Shepherd, and if you Google, it looks like a bear. I think it weighted like 70 or 80 kilograms. It was a girl, we called her Lola. I don't know how I managed to walk her, because she was like, you know, bigger than me in size.

But that's, that's when my love for pets came to be. And after that I have many other pets. 70 or 80 kilograms. I'm trying to put this in pounds, that is, that's more than 150 pounds. Yeah. Yeah. That's like a human, human's full grown up man size, but it's, it's, you know, it's one of those big, big breeds like Sandernar, Troy Danes.

So yeah, just Google it, Caucasian Shepherd. Yeah. I'm sure the grocery bill alone was at least maybe a hundred dollars a week. This probably wasn't a vegetarian dog, right? No, of course not. And the amount of poop Heather, we need to clean up was also quite big. Yeah, I bet. I mean, if that, if that dog starts humping somebody's leg, I mean, it can't get away.

Oh my God. They just. Oh my God. Yeah. But I love her to death. I absolutely love her to death. And she lived with us for 13 years, which for this specific breed is like an insane amount of years. They usually, you know, their life expectancy is around eight to 10 years. So yeah, she was a really happy dog. Did you guys have any break ins, any burglaries during that time?

I mean. No, obviously we didn't. Maybe it's because of her, but I wouldn't know, maybe, maybe like I would have bigger problems if somebody broke into our house because, you know, this also, this is a shepherd dog, so they're trained to protect the house. So yeah, they would just call for it and go for it. The shepherds use to, you know, protect

their herd. And the, the dog is like trained or has an instinct to go and kill wolves. So this dog can like, you know, fight a pack of wolves. So it's a really, really strong and powerful dog. Oh my God. Okay. I got to look this dog up after we get off this interview. I'm not really afraid of dogs. There was one time where I walked into, a friend took me to his friend's house and we were hanging out and I walked in and I didn't know he owned a dog and it was this huge Rottweiler and the way the dog looked at me, I was scared.

I was like stunned. I was frozen. And I tried to not show fear, but I, the dog knew instinctively that I was a little, a little scared. And so did his owner and his owner was like telling him, you know, calm down, boy, or whatever, just stay here, boy, or whatever. But I, that was the only time I was shitting my pants from, from a dog, but I'm sure you probably met a lot of people.

Yeah, of course, of course. And you know, some, some breeds have a bad reputation, specifically pit bulls. They're even banned in some countries, but it's never about the dog. It's always about the owner, right? So there's no trouble dogs. There are owners that can't handle the powerful breeds. Yeah, that's my take.

Absolutely. Absolutely. Okay, well, we're going to get into Cooper Pet Care in just a second, but I was looking at your, your background and you probably have, I would say the nicest pedigree background in terms of career. You started off at Procter and Gamble. I mean, that is like the hallmark of marketing.

At least in the States it is. And you were there a couple of years and then you went to Uber and, and then you were be before Uber, I think you were at, uh, B C G. My wife works used to work at B C G. Oh, nice. You have all these like, you know, great, great companies that you worked for. What, you know, what did you learn from working at Proctor and Gamble?

What was like the biggest thing you learned from each of these companies? And let's just really focus on three here. P and g. Yeah, definitely. B, C, G. And that's Boston Consulting Group for those listening. And then of course, Uber. Yeah, definitely. Thanks a lot. Yeah, I, I'm not going to lie. I do have, you know, this, this kind of background that is currently more or less typical for a founder, say ex consultant and then ex high growth.

I started my career at Procter Gamble. It was a pure coincidence how I got there. But I got there nevertheless, and I was working in something that was back in the days called CMK, Consumer Market Knowledge, and it was basically a, a, a, a marketing research. So we were kind of in house consulting for the marketing people in, in Procter and Gamble.

So let's say, you know, you're a marketing person at Procter and Gamble and, uh, you Oh, you own like several brands and the sales kind of don't go as, as, as well as you would want it to do. And you need to understand why. So you deploy us to that. And yeah, so the thing that I learned at Procter Gamble is literally the, the, the, the consumer understanding and consumer perception of the product, because I can tell her like a funny story about that.

Go ahead. Uh, we used to have this cleaning product that was called Mr. Proper, where I was from. I think in the rest of the world, it was called Mr. Clean or floors. Yep. And what we saw is that, you know, in our country, the sales were nowhere near our peers and we wanted to understand that. So we went ahead and do the focus group.

Uh, and the way the focus group works is that it's, it's literally like, you know, in the police department. So there's people on one side and that is this like a mirror.

Uh, yeah. So apparently through the conversation, we found out that the people didn't use it because there were a lot of like wooden floors. And people just were afraid that it's like chemical that will destroy the wooden floors, even, even though it wouldn't. And, you know, taking this insight, what we did, we did a little bit of trick.

So we just changed the packaging a little bit, and we added a coloring to that. So it was like brown. And we named it like Mr. Proper for wooden floors. So the formula didn't change, nothing changed, just the color, et cetera. And yeah, it solved the problem. So apparently it's, and a lot of times the product might be good.

It's just the perception of it and how you sell it to consumer. How do you work with, you know, their needs and their ears and those kinds of things. Yeah. You created like a placebo for it. And then Placebo just had that impact, Oh, it is good for if wooden floor is done. No, I mean, yeah, in reality, I mean, there's one way to do is just to educate the market and, you know, launch a huge marketing campaign telling everyone that, you know, Mr.

Proper does not damage wooden floors, et cetera. But the shortcut it's, is that right. So we just, um, rebranded a little bit. Yeah. Okay. Good story. Good story. Any other stories like from BCG when you were a management consultant for them? BCG is obviously like a school of life and I'm super grateful. Been there for many, many years.

The, there were many, many product projects that have been around. One of the most notorious one is that we've been doing the. Cement strategy for the whole country of Saudi Arabia. So we're flying there and meeting, you know, Prince King and all of that stuff. But generally BCG is absolutely great in terms of structuring.

He's teaching you how to think. It's all about like structure, hypothesis testing and. Those kinds of things. So it clears your mind and allows you to tackle the problem that we, you wouldn't do otherwise. Yeah. Do you remember anything from the Saudi Arabia project? You know, anything that you guys advised them on?

Well, I can't disclose it because it's obviously, you know, NDA and everything. But the funny thing is that we were doing that at the time where Saudi Arabia was still closed. to most of the world. So you couldn't get like a tourist visa or anything like that. So we had to go through work visas, even though it was a temporary assignment.

But I remember the very funny thing about that is that, you know, it's a very culturally different country. And, uh, they told me that before going on a project to Saudi Arabia, I need to grow some beard. Because otherwise, for some reason, To clean cut, huh? Yeah, so I used to, I used to have like, I used to be the clean shaved, and this is the time where I started wearing a beard.

Because apparently, back in the days in their culture, in order to be perceived as a grown up, you need to have like a facial hair. Be it a goatee or, or a mustache or anything like that. So yeah, this is, this is when I started to wear a a good looking beard right now. I did. Thanks a lot. And it's easier.

You don't have to, you know, shave every day. It was a blessing in disguise. Absolutely. How much time saved right there? That was an easy, you know, five minutes a day right there saved. Oh yeah, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. All right. All right, cool. After a quick break, Michael and I talk about his experience launching Lime in Austria.

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And so you should learn more about easy sales, how it can help improve your business at easy sales. com. Welcome back to my conversation with Michael. Get ready because in a little bit, he shares this crazy story of hackers who hacked into his line, his line of lime scooter fleets. And, and then you were at Uber and then of course, you know, Lyft, but you can just share one example from either of those companies.

By the way, I love Lyft. I ride this scooter here whenever I can, and it makes me feel about 20 years younger when I'm here in Bucharest. Yeah. I'm just riding through the neighborhood in the streets. And I tell people, it's like, you know, I could probably walk it. It's going to just take me five minutes walk.

But if there's a lift there, I don't mind taking it because it's, it's pure pleasure for me. It makes me feel young again. It does. I'm the opposite of you, Michael. You're great. You're growing the beard. I'm over here riding the scooter. Doesn't mean the beard doesn't mean that I'm not like we're all big kids.

Right. Trapped in the wrong man, buddy. No, I mean, obviously the, the, the Uber and Lime experience was the experience of the hyper growth startups. And this is something that taught me, I would say self esteem because I literally remember when we were launching Lime. So I joined Lime and my first assignment was to launch Austria.

And I, I literally just went like bought a plane ticket and went there and, you know, found out what to do on the ground. So it teaches you how to build something out of nothing. I mean, obviously you have, you know, a bigger team in San Francisco behind you with, you know, software and then the scooters get shipped, but you are the one there alone trying to figure out, you know, where to, where to rent a warehouse, where to find, you know, mechanics and operations managers, et cetera.

And another thing that it taught me is that nothing you know, goes along the plan. The super weird story where we deployed, you know, those first scooters in, in Vienna, in Austria. And, you know, after like six or eight hours, it's. Uh, started to like, most of the scooters started to go offline. So you see like 10 percent of the fleet goes offline, 20 percent uh, by meaning that we lost signal, right?

So we don't know where they are. It doesn't like communicate. Okay. And you know, so we obviously jumped on calls with San Francisco, et cetera, and started to investigate. It was, it was the weirdest story, but apparently somebody hacked the fleet and they were using the, the computer chip. That is in scooter to mine Bitcoins, believe it or not.

What? It was, it was the, yeah, it was the time where the Bitcoin price was high and you needed like a lot of computing power. So they literally just hacked it and use our fleet of scooters and you know, there were thousands of them as one big computer to do those calculations to, to mine Bitcoins. And because of that, it exhausted all of the data because each scooter had like some kind of limit in terms of gigabytes that it could send back to the server.

And they just, you know, maxed it out and the scooters went offline. So there you go. There are crazy people like that. How did you, how did you, did it take a long time retrieving all the scooters? Because if you couldn't locate them. That was like a scavenger hunt, I imagine. Yeah, so it didn't really take a long, a long time, but we had to, uh, work, you know, through the night.

We, we couldn't wait until the morning to pick them up, or the next day we had to go immediately. And, you know, you know, the last location and you start looking for it. I think we retreat like the most. Yeah. Were you like San Francisco? We have a problem. Had they ever, had the headquarters ever seen anything like that?

Had that occurred at another city before? I think this was the first, very first time it occurred and, you know, props to San Francisco team that they immediately plugged in the hotfix so it couldn't happen again, but, you know, it's just that super weird story, how, how people can be.

I'm pretty sure, you know, it was anonymous and everything, so probably not, um, but yeah, that's that. That's a crazy story. Wow. Wow. And yeah, Uber, Uber is amazing. I think that the greatest, the greatest, you know, benefit of having Uber is just simply seeing like where the cars are. And knowing the estimated time of pickup to me, that's just, you know, that's just genius that to me, that is the product.

Okay. So you're at Uber, you're at Lyft. You've had all these great experience, this great exposure doing building things, launching things, doing stuff that nobody, you know, is like, Hey, we need this to happen and you're trying to figure out things to make it happen. What was the inspiration behind Cooper Pet Care?

And when did you have that light bulb moment? We had it been like many years ago and you thought about it and you thought. Hey, I'm upset. Nobody's doing this yet. Or was it like something that happened recently? Yeah, no, I, I, again, like, I think like Uber and Lime experience taught me that, you know, the founders who people start companies are not like some geniuses.

It's just, you know, who people who have. Uh, the gut encouraged to go and try it out. And I kind of, you know, well, always kind of brewing inside of me. And I remember that I had this experience with my particular dog. He started to develop some allergic reaction and, you know, I didn't really know what to do about it because it was the first time I kind of faced it.

So and it was Friday night, like 10 PM or something like that. Most of the vets were closed. So I had to go to emergency. And I paid, I think, 300 euros for a visit because it's an emergency just to hear, you know, that it's a very simple allergic reaction and it's passed on its own. And it did. And this was the time, and I remember I was talking to this vet.

I was like, well, you know, we had a video call or something like that before me coming here. Would you be able to, to, you know, tell me the same? And she was like, yeah, absolutely. So, and this is the time when It struck me that actually in a lot of the times of the, the, the simple things can be treated or advised online without going to the vet, spending a lot of money, spending a lot of time.

And we just, or I just researched the market and saw that nothing, nobody was doing that. And you know, that was the time. So I, I joined an accelerator program called Antler. I found a co founder and we just started building it. When was this, Michael? We started it in 2022, so we were very, very recent. Oh, wow.

Okay. This is last year. All right. All right. Okay. The accelerator, you know, what did you learn from the accelerator? I mean, was there anything, you have this tremendous background. Was there something new or different that you didn't think, uh, you didn't think of before, but you got through from the accelerator?

Accelerator taught me one thing that I couldn't, that I didn't learn anywhere else, and it's specifically fundraising. You know, how to talk to investors, what are they looking for, et cetera, because those are the things that you don't learn now at Uber, Lime, well, unless you're in a fundraising team. So that was a very, very specific experience that I lacked.

And that was the main reason why I joined. Yeah, no, I, I lacked that experience too when I launched a nonprofit and I just, you know, started writing grants and rejection after rejection after redirection and looking back, looking back, it would have been better if I had spent some time getting to know people and build relationships before taking all that time just to submit like a code.

Great application. And so that was my failure back then. Any tips that you can share with, um, you know, with the audience, we've got a lot of startup founders and people who are thinking about starting startups when it comes to fundraising. Don't be afraid. Again, my tip is that it doesn't take a genius to start a company.

You don't need to be, you know, absolutely a brilliant or have a skyrocket scores. It's just that. So in my opinion, the, the entrepreneurship is not about being like, you know, super smart or extremely smart. The entrepreneurship is about being, about having courage, courage to start, fail and try again. And it's all about that.

Go try it out. There's really not much downside. If you fail, you can always restart or, you know, join the job, et cetera. Yeah. Yeah. Can we talk a little bit about getting your first users and the first people to test the product and give you feedback? Like, how did you go about that process? Yeah, it was, I mean, we, we follow the pretty standard.

thing when it comes to startup. So we tested all the hypothesis before that. So initially we launched an MVP, which is minimum viable product that wasn't really working with you. And that was just advertising what it would be, what it would do. And we, you know, put it out there online, where a little bit of online traffic on it.

And gathered the waiting list, right? Signed up, they were like, we're interested, et cetera. Once we actually launched the product, there was the first cohort of users. So the people who saw the MVP and wanted to use it, so they signed up pretty much immediately. And I still remember the first transaction.

That aimed to a platform we were, you know, opening the champagne and super happy. And was it easy getting doctors to get on board veterinarians? It took a bit of, you know, recruiting effort here and there. Then we were looking for very specific vets that want to join us that are, are there, you know, relief or on sabbatical or like that.

A lot of people don't know that vets are generally veterinarians are extremely stressful. Oh, sorry. Extremely stressed. So it's one of the most stressful jobs out there. And one of the things that we don't talk about enough is that how this stress results in some bad things. So a lot of people don't know that a veterinarian is three times likely to end his or her life through a suicide in general public because they work through a lot of stress.

Yeah. A lot of hours, et cetera. So we came to the vets with a proposition of Well, you know what? You can take some time off from your regular vet job that is super stressful and, you know, work from home, work your hours, et cetera, and still, you know, get her money. And you know, we got our initial team of the vets and we launched it.

You know, one of our vets is actually, or was living on a boat because she was going through sabbatical. Yeah. So those, those kind of interesting things. Yeah. What is the business model? Well, you don't have to go into too much detail, but. I'm just curious, what does that look like? Do people just pay like an extra, an extra fee every time they use it?

Like a one time charge. And then some of the, some of the kickback goes to the veterinarian. Can you, can you talk a little bit about that? Yeah. So the business model is, is as you described it, it's pretty much a marketplace where we connect people who need a device from licensed veterinarian with the licensed veterinarian.

Who know what they're talking about. Right. Okay. So it's, it's fairly simple. And indeed, we, as a user, you can choose whether you want a single consultation and pay for single consultation, or you can also go for a monthly, uh, subscription that is, that includes unlimited consultations, but it's gonna be a monthly subscription.

And yeah, so we pay the vets, well, I'm not gonna get into detailss of that. Fair, fair wages. Is it, is it a little bit cheaper than going to the in person to a veterinarian for the user? Yeah. Uh, it definitely is cheaper. And the main reason for that is that, um, you know, we don't have, uh, those overheads. We don't have real estate that we need to rent.

Um, uh, we don't have all the, uh, the register, the, the receptionist, all of those things. So it makes things, uh, cheaper, but also it is important to note that we cannot handle everything. Right? So our, um, success rate is around 75 to 80%. Of the cases. So in 75 to 80% of the cases actually help people understand, you know, what's going on and how that's still high.

Michael, that's still very, very high. Yeah, that's still high. Yeah. Yeah. Well, because we deal with, with the kind of simple stuff, uh, but you know, if, if your dog got a broken bone, I mean, yeah. Yeah. You have to go to the vet, obviously, and in some cases, We'll literally just say, look, it is an emergency. Go to the vet now.

Um, so we are not trying to replace that clinic. We are adjacent to the vet clinic in a sense that we are replacing Dr. Google, so to say, because, you know, when you don't know what's happening with a dog or cat, a lot of people try to Google. The Google is great because it's, it's here and there and it's free, but it's notorious because they don't know, you know, where the content is coming from.

So we're giving you this extra reliability because you're talking to a licensed veterinarian who has been through school, who has been through multiple years of experience. But yeah, we can't treat a broken bone or any, so we're, you know, a natural first step when you're trying to understand, you know, what's going on with your dog or cat is like serious symptom or not.

Do you need to apply home remedy or? Yeah, I'm still amazed that you guys launched this last year and already you, you're in the market and you're getting, you have users and people are using it now, how did you guys move so quickly and were able to get traction and also get the platform working? Was there any, any sort of like, I guess, anything that helped to shortcut your decision making as you moved forward and made progress?

Yeah, well, I think a couple of things. So I've been multiple startups and I've been in a startup culture for a while. So, you know, we, we, we, we're doing a very fast iteration. So, you know, you'll MVP something, then you launch the product and you take the user experience and you iterate very fast. On the technical side, I have to prop, I have to give props to my co founder who's the CTO and he's a experienced entrepreneur.

He previously built a company that he sold to a bigger player. So he has already a team that he worked with and they just like a well oiled machine that can produce stuff very, very quickly. So yeah, without him and his team, it wouldn't be possible. So co founder is important. That's another thing for the people out there, it's much, much harder to build a startup as a solo.

And it's always better to join forces with somebody. I believe it. What was one of the key hires that you guys made early on? If you have made any, any, any new hires? Yeah, I mean, obviously there's an engineering team, but it was fairly easy because those are the people who used to work with Michael Founder in his previous company.

Yeah, there's obviously veterinarians that we work with and a marketing department slash customer support. Okay. But again, like we are the marketplace, we're asset light, so we don't need huge amount of people to do the work. Okay. We are there just to connect people with veterinarians, vice versa. Entirely bootstrapped right now, Michael, or have you guys taken any investment?

No, we've, we've raised, we've raised investment in 2022 from various funds, including Antler, but some other VC funds and business angels. It's a small amount, so it's less than 1 million euros. But yeah, we are ultimately VC backed business. All right. Okay. So what is your biggest goal for, for this year? I mean, there's about, I guess you would say five good months left.

Anything that you're trying, you guys are trying to achieve right now? Yeah. So obviously wanted to growing the user base. and iterating on the product to make it better. Uh, but the thing that we are, uh, working on right now is to expand the offer. And particularly we want to expand into, uh, pet insurance because we believe, strongly believe that pets should have a right to health insurances.

Humans too, specifically like in the Netherlands where we live, every human has a health insurance that just, you know, saves you a lot of money, a lot of hassle. So yeah, we're working on launching our own insurance plan and hopefully it's going to go live. All right. Okay. Okay. So we're going to going to get into, Oh, one last question here.

Cooper Pet Care. What came up, why Cooper Pet Care? Why that name? Yeah, because, because Max Pet Care was not available and Max is the number one dog name, most popular dog name. And the Cooper is the second most popular. Dog name in the world, but that's why max is my dad is my dad's name. I didn't know that tidbit So yeah, when it comes to the dog names max is number one for boys and Luna is number one for girls Bula Luna Luna.

Oh, okay I didn't, I didn't know that. Okay. Any plans to expand internationally and go outside the Netherlands? We'll see how it goes. I mean, obviously we're seeing ourselves as, as at least many European companies. So we want to expand in other European countries. We'll see about States, not in the shorter terms, but you know, mid to long term, why not?

Yeah. All right. All right. All right. Let's get into rapid fire here. Give me the first answer that comes to your mind, Michael. Oh, yeah, that's scary, but all right. What is a funny reason why you would be asking for an additional 10 million for additional investment from your investors, a funny reason. A funny reason.

Yes. To, to test things. Whenever you talk to an investor, I'm very honest. And I'm like, look, I can, I can write you a business plan that shows you a hockey stick growth, et cetera. But the reality is, I didn't know. So we want to test it. So we want to test this or that or this. Okay. Second question for you.

How did you drive an old roommate nuts? If you ever had a roommate before? Well, at first I never had a roommate. Believe it or not. Okay. Girlfriend, maybe? Partner? Oh, well, yeah. I mean, girlfriend, how did I drive her nuts? I mean, a typical stuff, right? So throwing my socks ar around the, around the apartment and not picking them up.

Okay, . Okay. Instead of a fear of failure, you have a fear of blank. A fear of not doing a fear of being paralyzed by fear of failure and not doing any. Okay. What is a TV show that you can watch again and again? The last one is Ted Lasso, absolutely love this show, but generally Silicon Valley by HBO. Yeah, I need to go back and watch the last season.

I never saw the last season. I'm glad you reminded me. I watched it like, I watched the whole show like three times already. Those characters are like so yeah, yeah, they couldn't have picked like a better character for each one. It's all on point It's all online, but yeah, as I said, the recent one is Ted Lasso.

It's absolutely a great show. I've heard it is. I don't have, I don't really use Apple, but I've heard it's a great show. So I should check it out. It's an amazing show because it was made by the creators of Scrubs. If you watch this show back in the days. So it, it mixes the, you know, comedy with a drama. Um, very interesting.

Okay. Yeah. I need to check it out. Last question for you. Members of the social elite are paying thousands of dollars just to experience Michael's blank. Those dollars might go, I would say, you know, courage or being fearless, but it. Borderlines with stupidity, you know, there is a very fine line between being a courage and stupid.

So yeah, that's that. Okay. All right. Well, thank you, Michael, for coming on Innovators Collab. Everybody listening, I hope you enjoyed this. I'm going to put links to Cooper Pet Care and to Michael's LinkedIn profile and the show notes and on the ICO website. We'll be back next again with another European startup founder.

If you enjoy this, feel free to subscribe on Spotify app or YouTube and tell others about it. I had a great time chatting with Michael. I learned which dog breed wolves are afraid of the Caucasian shepherd. I learned that hackers. Can hack into scooters and use their computing power to mine Bitcoin and I learned that entrepreneurs are not some kind of superheroes.

As Michael said, there are people just like you and me who have the ability to get back on their feet after they failed. And if you want to learn more about Michael, just go to cooperpetcare. com links to all of this are in the show notes. Thank you to Michael for being on the show. If you liked this episode, send me a note on LinkedIn and subscribe on YouTube, Apple or Spotify.

And don't forget, I recently launched the Innovators Can Laugh podcast media network. It's created for and hosted by marketing and B2B industry leaders. It's the first media network that gathers leading marketing and entrepreneur related podcasts and newsletters. Under one umbrella, therefore making it a lot easier for SAS companies to reach a large audience, grow their brand and authority among trusted industry influencers.

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